Interview with Frank Rosenthal

Well, we haven't managed to got an exclusive interview yet, but we'll work on that... For now, enjoy this interview (verbatim from Casino Guru) with Frank "Lefty" Rosenthal, the man you saw portrayed in Casino with Robert De Niro, Sharon Stone and Joe Pesci. Of course, he was the man played by De Niro.


What do you see as the most drastic change in Vegas in the last 25 years?

Probably the most dramatic change would be the computerization and I like that. I think that’s advancement and I think that’s great. The big change has really occurred in 2 areas: lack of hospitality, one-on-one, and the second change would be that in general, the personnel simply are not qualified. I’m speaking about the casino personnel. They look nice, but they just don’t have it.

What do you miss most about the casino industry?

The only thing I miss is not working. When your whole life is built around gaming and once you get your Ph.D. from The School of Hard Knocks--that’s the college I went to--you miss not being able to apply the expertise and knowledge that you gained over all those years.

If you were working in the industry today what changes would you make?

A 180 probably, too many to even list. They would be dramatic changes. Beginning with one-on-one hospitality and humility within the casino rather than intimidation. One example, anybody that worked for me would have to address the customers as ma’am and sir, without exception. I think it’s a class touch. I think it makes people feel welcome and it doesn’t cost you a penny.
Since the entrance of the corporation Las Vegas, Nevada has changed dramatically. They are very clever in being able to recognize the wonderful opportunity of cash flow. It took them a while. They finally decided, Boy! This is a real Gold Mine in Las Vegas, Nevada, so let’s go after it. What they didn’t do, is have the people that can really provide the customer service. They’re just not trained properly.

Sports handicapping is your business. What do you like to do for pleasure?

I’m not sure if I’d call it my business, it’s a hobby of a sort. It’s a lot of work, so I really should list it as a hobby because it’s 24-hours-a-day. If I’m not working, I’m thinking. I have 2 hobbies other than work: I like pretty flowers and good-looking gals. That’s my hobbies.

If you were going to design and build a new Las Vegas resort what would you build?

It’s a question of what market you’re targeting. For example, Bellagio is targeting the elite. When I worked in Las Vegas, we had four properties. We called them grind stores. If I had the opportunity to design a hotel casino, I’d probably give it a name. Not literally, but something like John and Jane Doe. To accommodate everybody. I’m not into the kid thing, so I’m not into the Circus Circus kind of thing. They’re successful--don’t get me wrong. I wouldn’t go for just the high rollers. I’d try to accommodate the masses. That would be my particular thing.
Not that I couldn’t create or operate a Caesar’s Palace. There really isn’t much difference. The odds are the same in every casino. The 4 and 10 pays 2-1 no matter where you go. We were the first ones to run the 49-cent breakfast: two eggs any style, ham, bacon, sausage, toast and coffee. When we did that they thought we were crazy, but we weren’t. Also we were one of the first to come up with the all-you-can-eat buffet. I like those things ‘cause they bring in bodies and that’s the name of the game.

Do you feel the gaming industry has lost some of its mystique with the recent accessibility of gambling to the masses?

I really don’t. Even though the expansion is really sky-rocketing across the country and across the world, I think it still holds a lot of mystique. I think the average person still is somewhat mystified about gaming in general. The operators take on a certain degree of mystique. I guess I’d fall in that category.

In hindsight how do you view your role in the casino industry? And if you could, would you go back to the good old days?

I’m a handicapper. I’ve been a handicapper all my life. I say that because I handicap everything; some good, some not so good. I know what I’ve accomplished, I know where I stood in the industry as far as knowledge, and quite frankly, it doesn’t sound very modest. I would stand even-up with anybody in the industry and I know that. I did my homework; I studied the game and I used to eat, sleep and drink it.

Would you go back to the good old days?

With some modifications, certainly; yes I would. Superior service and it doesn’t cost a penny. Welcome to the Stardust, or good luck. If you didn’t do that and you worked for me, you’re gone, absolutely gone

Is there anything you would do differently if you had the chance?

No. I don’t think anything’s happened over the last 17-18 years I’ve been out of the game. It still works. In the operations of a hotel casino, there’s probably two, three people, who determine the success, or lack of it. What most people overlook in the industry, in Las Vegas, Nevada, is you do not have to be a genius to win. To the contrary, if you don’t win you should be classified as a moron. Las Vegas is, for lack of a better expression, a big blotter. It sucks up every, all mistakes. It’s the only industry in this country that I’m aware of, where you can make a lot of mistakes and still survive.
The difference in the operations is as follows: I used to have a slogan--I want 16 ounces to the pound, and I wouldn’t accept 12,13 or 14. I’m not conscious of any operation in that state today that demands 16 ounces to the pound. If they’re getting 8, 10, 12, 14, they’re still making an awful lot of money. But what they don’t realize, what they’re missing--they don’t know any better. I know that sounds arrogant, but it’s the truth. Whether they win $200 million, so what? You should probably be winning $250 million in that particular operation.
Keep in mind, the game is strong. The game isn’t strong because of the built-in percentages for the house. The real strength behind gaming, casino gaming, is the average person doesn’t understand the game. They don’t know how to manage their money. Really, that‘s the hidden percentage. If you walk over to a craps table, put your money down, and if you know what you’re doing, the percentage is really very small against you. The casino gets so many rolls per hour. That’s how they continue to multiply and build up the percentage.
In addition to that, the average person doesn’t know how to use their money. The last thing about that is the average gambler is looking to win a little, and apt to lose a lot. That happens. It’s been going on since there were casinos in existence. It’s very tough to press when you’re winning, which is the rule of thumb. I guess another example would be in the sportsbooks. The average player, if they win in the afternoon in the day games, they’ll go out and party at night. In reverse, if they lose, they can’t wait for the night games to start. It’s human nature--that’s why the casinos are so powerful.

What exactly is the Black Book and are you in it? If yes, how does this affect you?

I don’t mind commenting on it; it’s common knowledge. I’m excluded from walking into a property that has gaming in the State of Nevada. It’s a stigma. It’s like being branded--no question about that. From a practical sense, it has no application at all. There’s nothing adverse about it, because Frank Rosenthal has no need to go into a casino. But it is a stigma--it’s like being branded. It’s a political tool and most students of law, if they were going to be objective, would tell you that excluding Frank Rosenthal is totally unconstitutional. But no one has ever really challenged it all the way to the United States Supreme Court, and I don’t intend to.

How close to reality was the movie Casino?

That’s the most frequently asked question since the movie came out about 4, 5 years ago. I can answer this way: Most of what you’ve seen is accurate, but the way it was portrayed in the movie is not accurate. One example, where Robert De Niro was juggling. Yes, I had a TV show, but I never juggled on the TV show. The movie, Casino, was slanted and the characters were slanted to represent the concept from the director, Martin Scorsese. Now unquestionably, Marty is a brilliant technical director, but when he did Casino, he lost it. He wasn’t able to capture the screenplay, and the way he portrayed the characters, in my judgment, lacked the reality of the actual facts.

Did you like Robert de Niro’s portrayal of you and how much input did you have into both the book and the movie?

Anything that Bob De Niro does is good. On the other hand, when you see Robert De Niro in a movie and if he’s not nominated for some type of an award, it’s one of two reasons: It’s either a bad screenplay or a bad director. It’s not him. Had the director taken the handcuffs off De Niro and said Listen Bob, do it your way, it would've been a different movie. I spent hundreds of hours with Bob De Niro--hundreds, via the telephone, in person, in my home, in conferences, California, New York. He understood Frank Rosenthal, better than I thought he did, but then he did not direct the movie. Scorsese goes by Marty and Marty had his slant on the movie and the characters. I think De Niro is one of the top 5 great actors of all time. Absolutely--I had input, but once they begin what’s termed ‘principle photography’, the director becomes Jesus Christ. I had input. We met and yes, I spent many hours with Marty--many. He’s a good fellow, but he really didn’t do his homework in Casino. My approach would be different. When he flew into Las Vegas, Nevada he didn’t go up and down the aisles of various casinos and look. He doesn’t understand casinos. There’s a big difference if you know. So he took the screenplay and slanted it the way he wanted it to be.

Do you stay in touch with Oscar Goodman and would you have voted for him?

No. I think the last time I spoke with Oscar was about 6 months ago. If I had an occasion to call him I would. I don’t know about voting for Oscar as mayor. I wouldn’t oppose him. He has no experience in that field. On the other hand, the mayor of Las Vegas is equivalent to the dogcatcher of Las Vegas. I mean it’s more symbolic than authoritative. No disrespect to Oscar, but what’s the big deal?

How about Allen Glick? Was he really as naïve as the book portrays him?

Very good question. Probably the most misunderstood and misrepresented person, both in the movie and the book, and even going beyond that to the industry. Allen Glick, in my judgement and experience--I worked side by side with him for probably a little over 5 years--was one of the brightest administrators that I’ve ever come across. I would describe him to you as having superior intellect. For whatever reason, the movie didn’t go that way. No, he’s not naïve. He was young when he came into the industry. As far as casino gaming he was a neophyte, but this is one sharp businessman, with a mind that’s almost as quick as a computer. He was a very, very bright fella, and that’s my honest opinion about Allen. Naïve? Again, that is the director. Plus the theme of the movie was Frank Rosenthal, Geri Rosenthal and Tony Spilotro. In other words, Allen Glick was not a featured character for that movie. Therefore, the director decided to dismiss him. As far as real life, Allen Glick is one of the brightest people I’ve ever met in my life and I’ve met a lot of bright people.

Do you still pay as much attention to details as you are famous for doing?

Frank: I would admit, acknowledge, or confess to you that I am an absolute perfectionist, no matter what it is. I haven’t changed and I never will. It’s every "I" dotted, every "T" crossed, and they better be polished too. I’m not so sure if it’s good. They say it kind of borders on insanity. I’m not sure if that’s true. It’s a characteristic or idiosyncrasy of mine and I’ve been doing that all my life. It’s the only way I know. That’s just the style I apply in anything I do. I’m very seldom satisfied with anything I do.

From your own experience, what is your favorite casino story?

How many hours you got? I take that back. How many days you got? To try to take one story would be like: Who’s a better ball player--Joe DiMaggio, Mickie Mantel, or Willie Mays?
I’m not gonna say this is a favorite, but it’s certainly one. When we caught the two professionals--we call ‘em bandits--trying to rip the casino off that’s probably one of the better ones. In the movie they didn’t portray it as it actually took place, but it was a very interesting situation. I’ll give you the background on it.
First of all, I never flew in and was given red carpet. When I went to work in the hotel the only guy that was below me was the shoeshine boy. I went to work for $65 a day. So that’s certainly a misconception.
In the movie, this is when the fella--real big guy--had a knife in his hand. He was sitting at a poker table with his feet on the table, and he refused to take them off. What actually happened is, at that time, I was the #3 man in the casino, and it was my assignment to go into the poker room and clean that room up. The poker players were unaware of my authority. So when I saw that particular fellow, sitting there with a bunch of other bandits, I said to the shift manager of the poker room, Would you ask that fellow to take his feet off the table and put on socks? By the way, he was barefooted. In the movie he wasn’t. So the shift manager, I remember him clearly; his name was Todd, he was a very big, huge fellow, he said to me, "Not me; you’re picking on the wrong guy." I said to myself, Oh boy! As I walked a few feet away from this particular shift manager I heard him say, ‘cause he didn’t say it softly, "Watch what’s gonna happen here. Frank’s overmatched."
I walked over to the fellow sitting there with his feet up and said to him very nicely, "Would you please remove your feet from the table and put on socks?" He didn’t even look at me; he just totally ignored me. I backed away for maybe 10 seconds at the most and I approached him again. I repeated, "This will be a personal favor if you do what I ask you." He said to me--quote: "Get a fucking job." With that I backed up to a pole that had one of the telephones that was very close by. It was only about 5 feet from where I was standing. I got ahold of the PBX operator, the chief, and I said get ahold of so-and-so, so-and-so, and so-and-so; send them down to me right away. They were there within a minute. There were three of them. Two were in uniform and one was in plain clothes. The one in plain clothes was my main man. I said to the three of them, "See that jerk-off sitting over there? I want you to 86 him."
They started to walk away, and I said "Wait a minute--the hard way." That was not in the movie. When I talked to De Niro about it, when he was in Boca Raton after the movie was made and I told the story, he almost fainted. He said "Frank, did you tell me that?" I said "Come on, Bob; sure I did. Marty changed it."
To continue: One of the security guards said, "Mr. Rosenthal, what do you mean by the hard way?" I said, "I want him to go out feet first. Not walk out. Through the glass." So the same guard said, "He can get hurt." I said "That’s okay. We’ll get him to the emergency room. Don’t you worry about it, you just do what I ask you to do." Anyway, they understood me, especially the guy in the plain clothes. So they went over and they got this fella, Bobby, the poker player with the knife and the feet and all. He saw them coming towards him. They grabbed him. He struggled, he struggled very hard, but he was over-matched. The other fellow sat still. They start taking the poker player towards the rear entrance of the Stardust and as he passed me by he said, "I’ll get even with you, you fuckin’ fag." I’m telling you the truth. It’s even funny today.
It was a long way to the rear entrance, about 40 yards, 50 yards, and I walked with them. I wanted to make sure what was going to happen, and they threw him through a window. He landed outside, and he was cut up and bleeding. He knew that he was hurt so he went to the emergency room at Sunrise Hospital. From there he went over to the Dillan’s Hotel, where he contacted Tony--in the movie it was Joe Pesci. He told Tony what happened: "There’s a lunatic that works at the Stardust that did this to me," referring to me.
With that I got a call from Tony Spilotro and he said, "Frank, you know have you lost your mind?"
I couldn’t relate to it at the moment. I said, "What are you talking about?"
He said, "You almost severed a good friend of mine’s arm."
I said, "What do you mean?"
"Well the guy’s all bandaged up."
Again I said, "Who you talking about,Tony?"
"Did you just throw somebody out of the poker room?"
"Oh yeah, that mother… oh yeah I did."
He said, "Why?"
"Why are you asking?"
He said, "Because I got a piece of him."
"Well, did he tell you what actually happened? Did he tell you that I asked him to take his feet off the table? Did he tell you that he called me blah, blah, blah?"
Tony said, "He did that?"
Now in the movie, this is the scene where Joe Pesci takes the telephone and hits him on top of the head. That actually took place. So Tony grabs the guy that’s hurt, takes the handset of the phone, and hits him on the head with it. Tells him "How dare you do this to my friend?"
With that Tony said to me "Frank, do me a favor, a personal favor"
I said, "What is it, Tony?"
"Would you let that guy back in please, when he recovers?"
I said, "Yeah, with the understanding that he behaves himself, Tony."
Tony told this fellow, "Next time you go into the casino make sure you see Frank."
Anyway, the end of the story goes like this. Four or five days go by and here comes this… He walks over to me and says, " I want to apologize for what I did." A totally different demeanor.
I said, "Ok, you know, everything’s even."
He asked, "Can I go in the card room?"
"Yes, with one condition. You need a tie." Now I was just working him.
He said "Well, Mr. Rosenthal, I don’t own a tie."
I said, "Well, there’s a haberdasher right down the aisle. They sell ties."

The end of the story--he went and bought a tie.

I would be willing to take criticism for that from anyone. That was my style. We could’ve done it a different way, but I was trying to send a message. The fellas at that table--there were 5 of them--we call them tag teams. They’re going to gang up on anybody that walks in there and they’re going to rip them off. I was trying to clean the room up. This fellow was going to resist me. Now I asked him twice. After I did what I did, the room started to change dramatically. Now the four at the table that were in there, they became gentlemen. In fact, I talked to them afterwards and said, "Now you’re welcome to hang around here, but if I catch you double-up on anybody, you’re going to go out the same way that your friend did."
We wanted to send the message to the corporation that you can do those things if you want, but you’re better off not doing them around our home. That message got around. Now, were we totally free of theft from both inside and outside? No, we were not, but you couldn’t ride us horseback.

Did you ever say anything to the person who said you were outmatched?

Yeah. What I didn’t tell you was, I went over to the casino manager and I told the casino manager, "Give me a pink slip." That wasn’t shown in the movie either.
They said "For who?"
I said, "Come on, follow me." I walked up to this fella and I gave him the slip and I said, "This is for you."
He looked at it, he saw his name on there, and he was terminated immediately. He was a wise guy, so he got the message, and we promoted somebody else right off the floor. That was it; he left right away.

Which do you think was more costly to you, theft from the outside or from the inside, with the dealers?

Theft, as we’re talking, is going on right now in virtually every casino in the country. Our level of tolerance was very, very narrow. I would say to you that on an organized level, more from the outside than from the inside. You know when you work in the industry, you’re experienced and you understand the game. You can almost smell it. You don’t really have to catch ’em. We had an eye in the sky. All the casinos have them, but they really don’t catch that much. You can look at somebody and know if they’re doing something wrong. You can smell them out, and that’s how we worked.

Which do you prefer: the old or new Vegas?

I don’t believe you need to put a clock on a player and see what he’s playing in order to give him a free ticket to the coffee shop or one of your gourmet rooms. I don’t believe in it. It isn’t necessary. That’s corporate mentality, or some of the corporate mentality. Keep in mind, corporations--they’re bright and they have good top executives--but in order to understand casino you have to grow up with it. Just because you have a degree in casino from UNLV or any university, it does not qualify you to be a casino man. In addition to that, in order to be a totally qualified casino operator--one of the three top individuals in an operation--that person should be qualified not just from behind the counter, but he needs to know what takes place on the other side. Unless you know both sides of the counter, you cannot consider yourself to be an untouchable.

What top three pieces of advice would you give to today's casino managers?

Number 1: As a casino manager you need to learn both the outside and the inside thoroughly. Just because you know the inside doesn’t qualify you to be an absolute brilliant casino manager.

Number 2: Train your help properly from the beginning. In other words, give them the ground rules and don’t change. No compromise.

Number 3: Make sure that you know all the games thoroughly. In other words, don’t pretend. If you don’t know something, learn it.

If you follow those three examples, you’ll become a pretty good casino manager.

The title, King of Vegas, has passed from you to Steve Wynn. What are your feelings on this matter?

Well, I never really thought of myself as the King of Las Vegas. I was very proud of what I was able to do. I certainly couldn’t argue or really debate the fact that Steve Wynn is the King of Nevada, not just Las Vegas. There’s no question about that. When I was in Las Vegas, Steve Wynn was learning the game. He used to come over, twice a week, to the Stardust and ask me if he could follow me around. I said "Sure, anything I can do for you, let me know."
He’s very skilled, he has a very skilled mind, good vision, good foresight, and he surrounded himself with some very, very bright people. In addition to that, he’s had the benefit of having some friendly bankers. You put that combination together you’re going to be a winner. Last but not least, if you’re in Steve Wynn’s way, he’ll run you over, and that’s not a negative, ‘cause so will I.

Where do you see Vegas twenty-five years from now?

I don’t see Vegas getting bigger. Quite frankly, for years now the professionals, including myself, have felt that Vegas is over-built. I didn’t think that way going back seven, eight, ten years ago. I changed my mind recently. In the event that in the next fifteen, twenty years some of the remaining bigger states, two in particular, those being California and Florida, really wake up to casino gaming, Las Vegas would become a large bowling alley. California and Florida dismiss the word gambling as being a bad word. I think it’s inevitable that more states will join up and legalize casino gaming. Illinois is doing it right now. You have riverboats, the largest casino in the world is Foxwoods in Connecticut, and then you have Mohegan Sun, and they're kicking some butt. California, right now all they have is Native American casinos, and they’re going to make a big difference on Las Vegas gaming. So in my humble judgment, the future of Las Vegas is not that good. Yes, they have the foothold. They have a strong hold, but if you expose them to good legitimate hotel/casino gaming in the State of Florida or the State of California, they better watch out.

How do you view online gaming?

Online gaming is a very interesting phenomenon. Online gaming is a boom and will continue to become better. Those that regulate and govern gaming, legitimate gaming, in this country continue to turn their heads. Offshore online gaming exists because of supply and demand--being that demand is greater than the supply. The regulations in the State of Nevada say, report this and report that, you can’t do this, you can’t do that, and they are self-destructing. Therefore, there are a lot of people out there that have taken advantage of the hypocritical, ridiculous regulations that legalized gaming has. They’re really bailing it in from what I’m able to find out from my sources.
You’ll hear opponents of gaming. It’s compulsive, it’s addictive, it’s this and that. In the meantime, right here in the State of Florida, you can go to jai-alai, dog tracks, racetracks, you can bet the lottery. You can become addicted to that too, but they put a label: well, that’s legitimate, and the other’s not. The biggest problem I see in gaming in this country is not the word "gaming", it’s those who regulate gaming. It goes back to prohibition. That didn’t work, and you’re not going to be able to stop the offshore online gaming. You can bet on that one, kid.

In one sentence, how would you describe yourself?

One sentence, Frank Rosenthal? I guess "A consummate professional who strives for perfection, and never did learn to take a step backward."